Meeting the Digital Twin Challenge discussion

[Nicholas]

 

 

[Lawrence Chapman]

is there a meeting invite or registration page to join at 10:30?

[DRossiter87]

20 minutes ago, Lawrence Chapman said:

is there a meeting invite or registration page to join at 10:30?

Hi @Lawrence Chapman, Brian, Nick, others and I will be joining from 10 to facilitate questions/discussions within the chat log here.  People pose questions (as you have just done) and we ensure a rapid response to facilitate conversation.  Feel free to pose your questions here and I'm sure between Brian and the team we can ensure an answer is provided.

[Lawrence Chapman]

?

[Guest Simon Scott]

Hi Brian,

Is there a third category of digital twins: historical? These capture what happened to the physical entities and enable learning and assurance?

Kind Regard

Simon

[Nicholas]

Welcome to the start of today’s Digital Twin Talk and a big thank you to @Brian Matthews from DAFNI for joining us. We’re looking forward to getting your thoughts and questions related to Brian’s video – and maybe posing one or two of our own.

Please do start adding your thoughts by replying to the conversation thread.

 

[Brian Matthews]

HI Simon,

4 minutes ago, Guest Simon Scott said:

Hi Brian,

Is there a third category of digital twins: historical? These capture what happened to the physical entities and enable learning and assurance?

Kind Regard

Simon

An interesting question.   These would be like predictive twins - but the feedback into the physical system is less direct.  Certainly you nwould want to run twin models over historic data for learning and assurance - and also to validate your models.

Brian

 

[Lawrence Chapman]

I am currently work on a large rail project across the north of England. We are currently at the design stage , where we would like to understand the carbon impact of different design options. eg Embeded Carbon from built assets (capCarb)  plus operational carbon (OpCarb) from different design options eg line speed, journey time, electrification options.  Does DAFNI have any data sets that could aide the decision making of this optioneering process?

Lawrence

[Guest Keith Deaney]

Hi Brian, 

 

Are the metadata framework requirements available for download?  Is there any guidance on the requirements of this data prior to circulation of models? And what standards are these requirements based?

 

Thanks

Keith

[Nicholas]

5 minutes ago, Brian Matthews said:

HI Simon,

An interesting question.   These would be like predictive twins - but the feedback into the physical system is less direct.  Certainly you nwould want to run twin models over historic data for learning and assurance - and also to validate your models.

Brian

 

Hi Simon - thanks for this. To offer a different perspective on this, we are also seeing examples of digital twins being used to monitor historical assets for conservation purposes (e.g movement of underground medieval walls), and see how this may impact related underground  utility assets.  Looking at historical data, and potentially current data and predictions.

[Brian Matthews]

Hi Keith,

2 minutes ago, Guest Keith Deaney said:

Are the metadata framework requirements available for download?  Is there any guidance on the requirements of this data prior to circulation of models? And what standards are these requirements based?

 

Thanks

Keith

We are currently working on our current release - we'll publish the details of the metadata framework with release.   We are using a standard for capturing metadata on datasets call DCAT and combining that with Geospatial and sensor standards.    The metadata should be extensible fro different domains.   Would there be any standards you would like to see included?

thanks

Brian

[Guest Keith Deaney]

We are creating building models as apposed to infrastructure generally.  As such this uses Uniclass2015 and COBie currently.  Also the formats required for models would be useful to understand.

 

Thanks

 

Keith 

[Brian Matthews]

Hi Lawrence,

7 minutes ago, Lawrence Chapman said:

I am currently work on a large rail project across the north of England. We are currently at the design stage , where we would like to understand the carbon impact of different design options. eg Embeded Carbon from built assets (capCarb)  plus operational carbon (OpCarb) from different design options eg line speed, journey time, electrification options.  Does DAFNI have any data sets that could aide the decision making of this optioneering process?

Lawrence

We are working with partners who are interesting in this topic.  We are looking at  a project which is looking environmental resiliance which starts later this year.   And we have other partners who aer interested in transport and air quality , energy distribution- and decarbonisation is a key issue.  DAFNI may not hold data directly,  but is a good place to link, access and bring data together from different sources  -  climate data for example.  If you would like, we could follow on this and see if we could find interested partners.

thanks

Brian

[Guest Andrew Z]

Hello Brian,

Thank you for presentation.  Digital twins and networks of twins are obviously very exciting and promising concepts. But currently twins still exist for some selected assets only. Often in a 'premium sector' of B2B market. What do you believe may be main factors holding those technologies from becoming vastly popular. Scaling, so to speak, to the mass market? 

regards,

Andrew 

[DRossiter87]

7 minutes ago, Guest Keith Deaney said:

We are creating building models as apposed to infrastructure generally.  As such this uses Uniclass2015 and COBie currently.  Also the formats required for models would be useful to understand.

Hi Keith, to confirm publications like Uniclass 2015 and COBie are under consideration.  Short Term, BEIS/CDBB are establishing a BIM interoperability steering group which is looking at the future on these and other aspects.  Mid term, we hope to see improvements and new developments such as a built environment taxonomy and other useful resources born from these activities.  Long term, we hope that this work will form a foundational element of the national digital twin; its purpose being to facilitate sharing between digital twins.

Access to the initial report (open for public consultation) can be found here:
https://www.cdbb.cam.ac.uk/news/bim-interoperability-expert-group-report

Edited May 5, 2020 by DRossiter87

[Guest Yu(Steven) ZHANG]

3 minutes ago, Brian Matthews said:

We are currently working on our current release - we'll publish the details of the metadata framework with release.  

Hi Brian,

Good to know DAFNI is planning to publish a metadata framework. Will there be any data/tools/models to be made publicly accessible via DAFNI?

It will be good to see some contextual and public available data be integrated and made availble via DAFNI, for example, some commonly used geospatial data http://geoportal.statistics.gov.uk/  and data sets that can be linked to these spatial identifers/objects. 

Steven

[Brian Matthews]

Hello Andrew,

2 minutes ago, Guest Andrew Z said:

Hello Brian,

Thank you for presentation.  Digital twins and networks of twins are obviously very exciting and promising concepts. But currently twins still exist for some selected assets only. Often in a 'premium sector' of B2B market. What do you believe may be main factors holding those technologies from becoming vastly popular. Scaling, so to speak, to the mass market? 

regards,

Andrew 

I think that there are business and technological barriers - which are interrealated.

Twins are currently bespoke - which means that you need a strong value proposition to invest, whcih may be rare.  But as standard use cases develop, for example pretentitive maintenance, then the should become more standard and commoditised.   Twins also need to be factored into the total cost of the asset from the start - which is more difficult to add to legacy assets.   Technologically, we also need better data and interoperability standards to make components within an asset base more plug-and-play.

thanks

Brian

[Nicholas]

@Brian Matthews 

It would great to get your overall thoughts please on how  DAFNI contributes to providing the data infrastructure needed for digital twins please? 

Many thanks,

Nick

 

[Brian Matthews]

Hi Steven,

1 minute ago, Guest Yu(Steven) ZHANG said:

Hi Brian,

Good to know DAFNI is planning to publish a metadata framework. Will there be any data/tools/models to be made publicly accessible via DAFNI?

It will be good to see some contextual and public available data be integrated and made availble via DAFNI, for example, some commonly used geospatial data http://geoportal.statistics.gov.uk/  and data sets that can be linked to these spatial identifers/objects. 

Steven

We will allow public/open data sets to be available through DAFNI - but we are also very aware of the licencing conditions and sensitivities of data.  So we would respect the data owners and allow them to release data as they want.  We would want to promote the FAIR principles - as open as possible, as closed as necessary.

Brian

 

[Brian Matthews]

Hi Steven,

5 minutes ago, Guest Yu(Steven) ZHANG said:

Hi Brian,

Good to know DAFNI is planning to publish a metadata framework. Will there be any data/tools/models to be made publicly accessible via DAFNI?

It will be good to see some contextual and public available data be integrated and made availble via DAFNI, for example, some commonly used geospatial data http://geoportal.statistics.gov.uk/  and data sets that can be linked to these spatial identifers/objects. 

Steven

And reagarding geoportal - we are talking to the Office of National Statistics, have some of their open data and discussing how we might collaborate more closely on accessing some of their more sensitive data.    Geospatial data is an area of major interest for us.

Brian

[Nicholas]

4 minutes ago, Brian Matthews said:

Hi Steven,

We will allow public/open data sets to be available through DAFNI - but we are also very aware of the licencing conditions and sensitivities of data.  So we would respect the data owners and allow them to release data as they want.  We would want to promote the FAIR principles - as open as possible, as closed as necessary.

Brian

 

Hi Steven and Brian,

Many thanks for the points around geospatial data. The National Digital Twin programme is working with the Geospatial Commission to look at this we see strong interest from DT Hub members in geospatial data/model and in combining this with hydrological, environmental and other data sets.

This could also be a really important area where DAFNI can help industry to make progress.

Nick

[Brian Matthews]

Hi Nick,

7 minutes ago, Nicholas said:

@Brian Matthews 

It would great to get your overall thoughts please on how  DAFNI contributes to providing the data infrastructure needed for digital twins please? 

Many thanks,

Nick

 

DAFNI provides an integration hub.  We have a metadata framework that allows us to bring together and link data sets from different sources within the same platform , with a base of rcapturing datasets, geospatial and sensor data, and extensions for domain metadata.   We would then support the work of for example the National Digital Twin Programme commons .    We want to provide a place for people to link, share and exchange data.

Brian

[Guest Andrew Z]

11 minutes ago, Brian Matthews said:

Hello Andrew,

I think that there are business and technological barriers - which are interrealated.

Twins are currently bespoke - which means that you need a strong value proposition to invest, whcih may be rare.  But as standard use cases develop, for example pretentitive maintenance, then the should become more standard and commoditised.   Twins also need to be factored into the total cost of the asset from the start - which is more difficult to add to legacy assets.   Technologically, we also need better data and interoperability standards to make components within an asset base more plug-and-play.

thanks

Brian

Brian, thank you. You have mentioned the legacy assets. What type of assets, DAFNI as a platform, mainly keeps - the new ones, which had digital model from the start, or legacy, which needed to be 'digitised' recently? 

[Marion Samler]

2 minutes ago, Nicholas said:

Hi Steven and Brian,

Many thanks for the points around geospatial data. The National Digital Twin programme is working with the Geospatial Commission to look at this we see strong interest from DT Hub members in geospatial data/model and in combining this with hydrological, environmental and other data sets.

This could also be a really important area where DAFNI can help industry to make progress.

Nick

In DAFNI we are working hard to connect with other data centres and data sources enabling researchers to access this data from a single source.    For instance climate data is available from Jasmin and we are building links with them to enable sharing of data through DAFNI.  We are very interested in doing this for other data types/sources.  

[Guest Yu(Steven) ZHANG]

11 minutes ago, Nicholas said:

Hi Steven and Brian,

Many thanks for the points around geospatial data. The National Digital Twin programme is working with the Geospatial Commission to look at this we see strong interest from DT Hub members in geospatial data/model and in combining this with hydrological, environmental and other data sets.

This could also be a really important area where DAFNI can help industry to make progress.

Nick

Hi Nick,

Thanks for the updates, geospatial data is an interesting and exciting area. I guess DAFNI may be able to help Geospatial Commission to <Building correlations between geospatial datasets>

https://geospatialcommission.blog.gov.uk/2020/04/23/building-correlations-between-geospatial-datasets/